Leaning Into Your Strengths: Neurodivergence and Leadership

Michelle: Welcome, everybody, to our Divergent Discussion. I’m Michelle, the founder of Kaboose.

Kaboose is a community and learning platform created for and with neurodivergent individuals. We help organisations and people work better together by bridging understanding between different thinking styles.

We’ve just launched our Neuro Nuggets, which are expert-led, human-centred microlearning modules designed to build awareness, confidence and practical inclusion strategies for the workplace.

Just a reminder that we’re recording this discussion so you can watch it on replay, including those who aren’t able to join us live.

I’m joined today by Mike Meyer. Mike is the founder of M31 and the author of Weird Is the New Normal: The Unlikely Path of Leadership. Thank you, Mike, for bringing along the prop!

With over 30 years of experience in technology, business and leadership, Mike champions what he calls “digital at heart” leadership, helping people stay human in an increasingly digital world. Very important!

Mike is a proud neurodivergent thinker, living with autism, OCD and chronic health conditions that have shaped his resilience, creativity and empathy.

Through his work, writing and speaking, he encourages others to embrace their uniqueness and turn lived experience into insight and strength.

When he’s not working, Mike can be found volunteering as a motorsport chaplain, building cars or Lego, and experimenting with design projects like his tiny home build. That’s something I didn’t know, so I’m very much looking forward to hearing about that!

I’m fortunate to have met Mike through the Kaboose community app. Mike is a regular at our hangouts, and we’ve been able to share lots of interesting stories.

Mike was also kind enough to send me a copy of his book several months ago, so thank you very much for joining us.

Mike: Thanks for having me.

Michelle: It’s a pleasure.

Obviously, from that biography, your journey hasn’t been a straight line. Tell us a little more about how your traits have shaped the way you learn and how you lead.

Mike: It’s quite a curious journey.

I grew up in a household of neurodiverse people. And when you’re surrounded by that, nobody necessarily knows that anything is different.

It’s not until you get to those high school years, when everything that used to work suddenly doesn’t, that you start to realise something is different.

You begin this journey of experimentation and curiosity.

There were also difficult experiences with bullying. I was terribly bullied, beaten up and belittled in the classroom when I expressed my unique self.

For example, I might have been sitting there with a Lego model, imagining a spacecraft flying around, and the class would really come down on me for it.

That gives you a picture of some of my childhood experiences.

At the same time, growing up in my family was valuable. My parents and grandparents didn’t understand neurodivergence to the same degree we do now, but they had insights to share.

Curiosity has always been part of who I am. I’ve always been one of those people who asks, “Why? Why? Why?”

I’m sure many people have experienced being around someone who never seems to have enough answers!

But that’s our natural curiosity coming forward, and I think it’s tremendous.

It can also trip us up because we can go overboard with it.

I remember when I was about 12, my father gently grabbed me by the shoulders and said, “Mike, I just need you to follow me and trust me right now. I need you to do what I’m asking without asking why.”

It was a beautiful moment between a father and son.

I didn’t understand it at all when I was 12, but I trusted him.

Looking back, those moments were incredibly influential, even if they didn’t make much sense at the time.

That’s been a fairly consistent theme throughout my life, because my life has been absolutely bonkers.

I sometimes don’t even know how I’m still alive!

I’ve nearly broken my neck mountain biking. I’ve had spinal cord surgery and have a large scar on the back of my neck, which my wife calls my Matrix plug.

I’ve been in more crashes and had more back problems than I can count.

At one point, I needed specialised surgery to help me lose weight and reduce pressure on my nerves. That also created additional challenges that I have to manage every day.

Almost no day in my life has ever been the same.

And for the autistic part of me that craves routine, that’s incredibly difficult.

When you have different traits pulling in different directions, you begin to notice how they can also work together.

I started realising that I could use these different ways of thinking to my advantage.

For example, I see data and patterns everywhere.

Someone can give me a dataset or spreadsheet, and I can often see a pattern almost instantly. I’ll think, “Can’t you see it? It’s right there!”

I’ve always been inquisitive, always looking for different things and making mistakes along the way.

When you’re curious, you just want to have a go.

And yes, you make lots of mistakes, but I’ve always looked at it this way: if I don’t take a step forward, I haven’t made any progress.

I’m only holding myself back if I don’t try.

I’ve been fired twice, both times in my early twenties.

In one situation, my manager struggled to explain what was wrong. He simply wasn’t happy with my performance.

In the other, the manager was really good at explaining what wasn’t working, but I eventually reached a point where I couldn’t address some of those concerns.

One of the things I was told was that I was a poor communicator.

I found that curious. How do you fix being a poor communicator?

My toolbox was pretty limited, so at 21 I went to TAFE and enrolled in a Certificate III in Communication at night.

I spent most of that course teaching people from other countries about Australian culture!

What I discovered was that I wasn’t necessarily bad at communicating.

I was good at communicating technical information. My challenge was navigating the social side of communication.

That was an important realisation.

I began recognising that I had some strong skills alongside areas where I struggled.

That was the beginning of learning to lean into my strengths, and it’s become a theme throughout my life.

Michelle: That’s really interesting, and a lot of what you’ve said resonates with me.

Particularly the constant asking why!

I don’t actually remember doing it myself, but there’s a family story about how I would continually ask why and drive my parents crazy.

I’m not sure my dad was quite the same style of communicator as yours, Mike!

Mike: We’re very direct communicators in my family.

A spade is a spade, and a brick is a brick.

When my wife and I got married, we discovered that her family communicated quite differently.

I would say something very directly, and she’d think I meant something else.

She’d ask, “Mike, did you literally mean that, or were you trying to say something else?”

And I’d say, “No, I literally meant exactly what I said!”

We’re big proponents of communicating directly and clearly because it helps us avoid second-guessing each other.

It also helps us build empathy and understanding by asking clarifying questions.

It’s okay to ask questions.

Be curious. I love that phrase.

Curiosity is a great skill, and when we lean into it, we can use it in powerful ways.

Michelle: I really think curiosity is important, particularly in communication.

I always thought I was a great communicator too, and I still think I’m pretty good, but there are nuances.

Sometimes it’s directness, sometimes missing things, and sometimes ruminating on conversations.

Communication is actually quite complex.

Mike: Rumination is a big challenge for me too, particularly with my OCD.

That’s where I come back to the idea of telling yourself the truth.

What is the truth of what’s actually happening?

Is my peace really being disrupted?

Is anything going to change in three hours compared with where things are right now?

And if something does change, will it actually be good or bad?

You might be surprised by the answers.

Michelle: I really like that. Tell yourself the truth.

In your introduction, we described you as a “digital at heart” leader.

What does that mean, and how does it connect with neurodivergence?

Mike: Digital at heart is a leadership archetype I’ve been developing through my business, consulting and mentoring work.

It’s a way of describing a skill set that brings three worlds together.

First, you have the operational world, which is very physical and tactile.

Then there’s the human resources-centred world, which is traditionally about managing people.

Those are the two areas most people associate with leadership and management.

But I say we need to add a third: the digital and empathetic dimension.

When I say digital, I don’t necessarily mean technology itself.

I’m talking about how our world is now influenced and driven by something we can’t directly see.

We hold devices in our hands. They’re physical manifestations of digital technology, but the digital world itself is largely invisible.

And it’s surprisingly unpredictable.

As leaders, we need to understand and work across these different dimensions.

There’s another invisible force that I think is a hallmark of this digital age, and that’s being human-centred.

Traditional human resources management focuses on managing people, but there’s so much happening beneath the surface.

You can see the physical version of me sitting here, but you can’t see what’s going on inside my head.

It’s not too different from what happens behind a screen.

There’s a whole world behind what we can see, and it’s chaotic and unpredictable.

But humans are amazing because we have this incredible capacity to be curious, learn and grow.

We can develop ourselves towards the future version of who we want to become.

When we first met, I mentioned that I don’t wear many labels because there are too many.

But there’s one thing I always wear: I am me.

I’m not going to live in somebody else’s shadow.

That’s something I really want to encourage.

The world has traditionally tried to make us conform to a mould.

Even our education system often prepares people for a society that existed decades ago.

But the digital world now influences culture on a global scale, creating incredible opportunities.

We need ways to understand that invisible complexity.

One of the things people do is create stories, narratives, imagination and pictures in their minds.

I have an unusual ability to visualise three-dimensional space.

I can rotate objects in my mind. I can see how things move and flow, almost as though I’m looking at 3D CAD software.

I can imagine water flowing through a model.

And I always seem to know where north is!

That’s a useful skill, but everyone has different abilities, interests and passions.

We need to use those interests because when we’re excited about something and genuinely enjoy it, we’re more likely to engage deeply with it.

I think that creates tremendous opportunities for neurodivergent people.

Think about the storytelling we love: Dungeons & Dragons, science fiction, Doctor Who, Star Trek, books and movies.

We love stories.

How many times have we gone into a meeting and told a much bigger story than necessary just to explain a point?

Michelle: I love that reference to Dungeons & Dragons.

Last week, we had Luke join one of our Divergent Discussions to talk about tabletop role-playing games and how they can support communication and social development.

You’ve touched on strengths without necessarily using that word.

I’m curious about what leaning into your strengths looks like day to day, particularly when you don’t fit the mould.

We’ve talked about this at our Kaboose hangouts and separately too.

We’re always trying to help the community recognise and tap into their strengths.

What does that actually look like?

Mike: It can look like many different things, and sometimes it can be really painful.

One part of it is this: don’t fit in. Don’t try to.

One of the great opportunities we have in a globalised world, and this is something Kaboose supports beautifully, is that we can find people who understand us more readily than ever before.

Over the past 30 years, I’ve had several significant moments where I’ve needed to step away from certain networks and build new ones.

I’ve had to recognise that I needed people around me who would champion and support me.

That can hurt.

Career changes and changes to your relationships or networks aren’t necessarily easy.

I don’t want anyone to think that any of this is easy. It can be tremendously difficult and exhausting.

I have a wonderful friend who’s nearly 60 and has had five different careers.

He was curious enough to try things that interested him, struggle through them, recognise what wasn’t working and listen to feedback.

For the past 15 years, he’s been working in aged care.

The smile on his face is wonderful to see because he’s found somewhere he can thrive.

For those of us who are highly curious, we can also approach understanding very differently.

Imagine a jigsaw puzzle.

For some people, six pieces might be enough to understand the picture.

But for others, we might need 20 pieces before the entire concept comes together.

We ask why because we’re trying to gather enough information to understand what’s happening.

Sometimes people interpret that as overstepping boundaries or trying to understand more than we need to.

They might simply say, “I need you to do this.”

But we’re trying to build a complete picture.

Sometimes you have to let other people work with the six pieces they need while you find the remaining pieces elsewhere.

Then you can come back and clarify.

Once you’ve built that understanding, you can do so much more with it.

You might see that the direction someone wants to take could create problems down the track.

You can say, “I understand where we’re going, but have we considered what might happen if we do this?”

Or you might see a problem coming and recognise an opportunity to address it before it happens.

Sometimes everyone else is looking at a situation and saying, “We don’t know what to do next.”

But your brain has already started putting together a proof of concept.

You can suggest an experiment: “Why don’t we try this and see what happens?”

That doesn’t mean taking over someone else’s job or micromanaging them.

It means using your insight to see possibilities, connect ideas and help move things forward.

That’s a powerful strength.

Don’t just do one thing with that insight. Think about the ten possibilities it might create.

Michelle: I love that.

It comes back to being curious. Be curious about your strengths, experiment with things and look at the different puzzle pieces.

Hopefully, you’re also working with people who can help you recognise and use those strengths.

You’ve said that chaos can shape you, but it can also crush you.

How can neurodivergent leaders turn chaos into creativity?

What tips would you share?

Mike: There are three things you can always bank on in life: death, taxes and change.

And when we talk about chaos, we’re often talking about change.

In this digital and emotional world, there are so many invisible influences on how things happen.

Things are constantly changing.

Something that worked yesterday might not work tomorrow.

You might say something funny in one meeting, then repeat it in another and have it go down terribly!

It can feel as though nothing is consistent.

For me, one of the most important things is organising my executive function around what I can influence.

I can’t control everything happening outside myself.

I might hold a Rubik’s Cube and turn it, which gives me a sense of control.

But even then, the cube is only turning because it was designed to allow that.

What I can control is my hand and the action I take.

That’s an important distinction.

What we can work on is our own responses, actions, thoughts, the way we treat people and the way we approach our work.

They’re the things within our influence.

I have significant challenges with focus and executive function, so I’ve developed systems that work for me.

One thing I do is organise my day into half-hour blocks.

I alternate activities to keep myself engaged.

A couple of fun things, then something boring.

Then another couple of fun things, followed by something less interesting.

I keep the blocks short.

I’m also conscious of how long I’ve been working on something because hyperfocus is a major trap for me.

If something is interesting enough, I can work on it for hours and completely lose track of time.

I use timers to interrupt that focus.

I’ve got one of my favourites here, a little dinosaur. He’s a good little bloke!

Michelle: Show us one of your timers! I know you’ve shown me before.

Mike: I also have one with a mechanical bell.

I find that much more effective than my phone because a phone alarm is so easy to dismiss.

But I still get caught in those traps today.

When something is really important, high priority and enjoyable, I can become completely absorbed in it.

And it’s exhausting.

My brain might have done some incredible work, but afterwards I can struggle to do anything else.

Michelle: Hence the time blocking!

Mike: Exactly.

And I hate to be one of those people who says exercise makes a difference, but it really has made a difference for me.

For years, I would hear people talking about exercise and think, “Really?”

But I’ve had to incorporate it into my life for physical and mental health reasons, and I’ve noticed the benefits.

It’s about developing the self-management strategies that help us do our best.

I’m still going to have these challenges in 20 years.

Michelle: You’re still going to be Mike, though, and that’s good!

Mike: I’m still going to be Mike, and I’m still going to make the best effort I can.

One of the things I love about people is that, in my experience, most genuinely want to do good things for others and for the world.

Most people aren’t intentionally trying to cause harm.

Sometimes we don’t understand what’s going on, but we can recognise that we’re all trying to do something meaningful.

That comes back to empathy and curiosity.

We might say something without expecting another person to react the way they do.

But when we try to understand their perspective, we give ourselves an opportunity to see things differently.

Learning has also been an important part of my journey.

It took me a very long time to understand how I learn.

Throughout primary school and high school, I was often the person sitting at the back of the classroom with my feet up, playing up rather than doing the work.

Much of it simply didn’t challenge me.

When I moved into more challenging subjects, I sometimes couldn’t connect the material to anything practical.

In senior maths, for example, we started learning about imaginary numbers and quadratic equations.

At the time, I couldn’t connect those concepts to anything meaningful, so I moved back to ordinary maths.

And I did extremely well without needing to put in much effort.

I rarely studied.

Assignments were usually completed at the last possible moment, sometimes with only an hour to spare, and I could still get distinctions.

For subjects like English or writing, I often wasn’t particularly interested. I’d do enough to get by.

But when I moved from school into technical trades, everything changed.

Suddenly, I was finding things I genuinely wanted to learn.

I could see the practical applications and became excited about developing those skills.

My life has followed a similar path ever since.

I look for things that interest me and give me opportunities to learn and grow.

I struggle with repetitive work over long periods.

After two or three years in a role, I can find myself ready for something new.

Over the past 10 or 15 years, my research, writing and other projects have helped me turn that trait into a more deliberate path of learning and development.

That won’t be the same for everybody.

But when we practise self-reflection, we can start to understand what works for us.

We can collect information from our own experiences and from other people’s perspectives.

Someone might say something. A piece of equipment might behave unexpectedly. A process might break down.

We can bring those observations together, reflect on them and recognise new ways of approaching a problem.

Michelle: I love that.

You and I have spoken about this with others during our Kaboose hangouts.

Many neurodivergent people doubt their ability to lead.

What would you say to someone who doesn’t see themselves as a leader?

Mike: That’s a really great question.

I speak to people every week, and whenever leadership comes up, they often start talking about managers they’ve had and how poorly they’ve been treated.

But I think we misunderstand what leadership actually is.

Leadership isn’t the same as becoming a middle manager.

Unfortunately, we’ve spent years telling people that having a leadership career means becoming one of the managers they may have had negative experiences with.

And who wants that?

Leadership and management are two different skills.

What’s unique about leadership is that it’s often voluntary.

There isn’t necessarily a formal career path into it.

You see something you want to change, and you choose to step forward.

If you don’t take that step, nobody is necessarily going to invite you to.

Management is different.

You can be a manager of people, processes, machinery or technology.

Management is about keeping things running smoothly.

It’s about having the insight to maintain systems and make sure the work happens every day.

That’s a valuable and important skill.

But it isn’t the same as leadership.

The two can work together, and sometimes a role requires different combinations of both.

We see this particularly well in the technology sector.

Someone might be brilliant at a particular technology.

They can understand how it works, where it’s going and what resources are needed to make it successful.

But perhaps they struggle more with the interpersonal or emotional side of managing a team.

In some technology environments, we recognise that and bring someone alongside them who has complementary skills.

They work together.

Traditionally, though, we’ve often expected one person to do everything if they want to progress.

That’s not always the best approach.

Leadership, to me, is about horizon gazing.

It’s about looking towards the future.

It’s about seeing where something could go, creating a vision and bringing the right people and resources together to make it happen.

Many neurodivergent people have strengths in recognising patterns, anticipating possibilities and seeing connections others might miss.

Those skills can be incredibly useful in leadership.

Leadership is about influence.

It’s about recognising a direction and having the confidence to help others move towards it.

Think about someone who loves tabletop role-playing games.

Put them in a Dungeon Master role, and they’re already practising elements of leadership.

They’re creating a world, guiding a story, responding to situations and helping a group work together.

It’s leadership practice in a very different setting.

But nobody is necessarily going to invite you into leadership.

You have to choose to step into it.

That means being curious enough to recognise an opportunity and saying, “I think there’s something better here, and I’m willing to have a go.”

That doesn’t mean it’s easy.

There are boundaries, other people’s emotions, competing priorities and many other things to navigate.

You also need to learn to operate at the right level.

I’ve been a Chief Technology Officer, and the leadership required in that role is very different from the leadership required as a team leader.

Leadership exists at different levels, and you grow into it.

We need good leaders more than ever.

Otherwise, we can end up with people relying on politics, power or other unhelpful behaviours rather than genuinely helping others move forward.

We need people who want to solve problems and make things better.

Of course, sometimes we have to temper our enthusiasm.

Just because we can see a solution doesn’t mean everybody else will be ready to implement it tomorrow!

We need to bring people along with us.

But that’s something we can learn.

In my book, I explore leadership at three levels: team leaders, middle managers and senior leaders.

Different levels require different skills, and I wanted to expose readers to those different perspectives.

I’ve had people tell me they’ve read something in the book and then recognised exactly that situation in their own workplace.

It’s encouraging when people can use those insights to better understand the environments they’re working in.

As you move into senior leadership, you’re also navigating more complicated relationships, organisational priorities and politics.

Sometimes it becomes a little like a game of chess.

Michelle: I’m not sure I’m particularly good at chess, Mike!

Mike: You’d be surprised, Michelle. Don’t sell yourself short!

Michelle: There’s so much value in what you’ve said.

I always say you can be a leader regardless of your role.

Leadership isn’t restricted to a particular job title.

You can also be a fantastic manager of a process, a machine, a project or a team without necessarily having the same strengths as a leader.

And that’s okay.

As you’ve said, we can complement each other’s abilities.

Mike: Absolutely.

You can have wonderful leaders who build teams full of excellent managers.

Those managers might have exceptional empathy, insight and practical skills that help everyone achieve their objectives.

I think objective-based work is incredibly important.

We shouldn’t be doing busy work simply for the sake of being busy.

That’s a waste of time and resources.

Good managers understand how to make processes work efficiently.

They might look at a standard operating procedure and immediately see ways to improve it.

They understand how to make the system work better.

That’s a fantastic strength, and it deserves to be valued.

Michelle: We have a question from one of our audience members, Ania.

How do you step into leadership without feeling like an imposter?

It’s a great question.

As we’ve discussed, people can develop incredible knowledge through their interests and passions.

These days, you can learn so much without necessarily going to university.

Your knowledge might be greater than someone with multiple degrees, but without those formal qualifications or titles, many people still feel like imposters.

Mike: I experience imposter syndrome all the time.

Rejection sensitivity is also a real challenge.

One of the most powerful things you can do is ask grounded questions.

What I mean by that is asking questions that invite you into a discussion rather than simply telling people what they should do.

You can ask questions that help someone else think about a situation from your perspective.

They might respond, “I hadn’t thought about it that way.”

And suddenly you’ve created an opportunity for influence.

You might say, “I’ve noticed this happening in the process. If these two things occurred together, what risks might that create?”

When you help someone reach an insight through questions, you’re supporting their success.

But if you simply project your ideas onto someone, you risk being perceived as steamrolling them.

My advice is to look for ways to help other people succeed.

Think about what your manager needs to achieve tomorrow.

Think about what their manager needs to achieve next month.

If you can make that easier, you’re creating value.

And you’re using the skills you already have.

Asking grounded questions also helps with imposter syndrome because you’re inviting a response.

Someone might say, “That’s an important point. I’ll take it on board.”

Or they might say, “We’ve already considered that, but there are things happening behind the scenes that I can’t discuss.”

That’s important too.

We don’t always have access to the complete picture.

There might be confidential information, legal considerations, financial issues or other factors influencing decisions.

We need to recognise that sometimes we won’t know everything.

When you ask questions, you’re effectively asking permission to enter someone else’s world.

Imagine I came to you and said, “Michelle, I’ve noticed this thing in Neuro Nuggets that doesn’t work. You need to change this, this and this.”

I might have a useful insight, but I’m crossing a boundary by telling you how to do your job.

Instead, I could say, “Michelle, I noticed something interesting in Neuro Nuggets the other day. I had an idea for one small improvement. What do you think?”

It’s the same idea, but the approach is completely different.

You’re inviting a conversation.

When you start receiving feedback, it helps build confidence.

Not every response will be positive, but you’re getting information instead of endlessly wondering what people think.

Volunteering can also be incredibly valuable.

I recently helped with a network upgrade simply because I wanted to be involved.

I asked, “Can I come and help?”

By spending time with people, I gained experience, saw how others approached the work and gave them an opportunity to understand my skills.

That curiosity and willingness to have a go creates experience.

It also helps challenge imposter syndrome because you’re collecting real evidence about what you can do.

You might discover that you raised something useful.

Or perhaps someone had already considered it.

Either way, you’ve learned something.

Then you combine that with telling yourself the truth.

Imposter syndrome often tells us we’re not good enough.

Sometimes we need to recognise that we’re also surrounded by people or environments that reinforce those feelings.

There may be times when you need to reconsider your workplace, professional networks or friendships.

Find people who understand you and recognise what you bring.

You might discover that you’ve spent years receiving negative feedback in an environment that wasn’t helping you grow.

When you move into a more supportive environment, your perspective can change.

I don’t think imposter syndrome necessarily disappears entirely.

But we can develop greater confidence, resilience and the ability to manage it.

I’m reminded of the Stockdale paradox.

It’s about balancing optimism with a realistic understanding of your circumstances.

Blind optimism says, “Everything will be fine,” even when nothing changes.

Complete pessimism says, “There’s no point trying.”

Neither is particularly helpful.

Instead, we can recognise the difficulties while remaining confident that we can work towards something better.

We can say, “I’ve got an idea. I’ve explored it, tested some things and I’m going to have a go.”

It might work, or it might not.

But I’m willing to take a step forward.

That’s a powerful mindset.

Michelle: Great advice.

I really like the idea of telling yourself the truth, although I think it’s a difficult thing to do.

Mike: It is.

And because it’s difficult, it doesn’t mean you’re going to solve everything tomorrow.

It doesn’t mean the first thing you try will work either.

Part of telling yourself the truth is recognising that you can fail.

And that’s okay.

You can try something, and even if it doesn’t work, you’ve still taken that step.

Michelle: We’re coming close to the end of our discussion already. Time has flown!

What’s one thing you hope neurodivergent people will take away from this conversation about embracing their strengths?

Mike: I’d like people to know that the opportunity is there.

My hope is that they feel a sense of courage and a desire to say, “I can have a go too.”

When I wrote my book, I asked myself, “If I didn’t have to do everything the hard way again, how could I make the journey easier for another person like me?”

I want people to learn from the mistakes I’ve made.

Of course, you’re still going to make mistakes of your own.

But curiosity gives us the opportunity to learn from other people’s experiences.

You might pick up my book, read Stephen Covey’s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People or explore the resources in Kaboose’s Neuro Nuggets.

There are so many opportunities to learn.

We can’t know everything, particularly in a world filled with chaos and uncertainty.

But there may be an answer or an insight somewhere that helps us take the next step.

My hope is that people feel encouraged to recognise something they want to improve and say, “I noticed that. I want to make it better. I’m going to step forward and have a go.”

Michelle: I love that.

Where can our audience get a copy of your book, Mike?

Mike: You can visit weirdisthenewnormal.net to buy a copy.

There are some fun things in the book too.

It’s filled with Easter eggs and codes to break, and it isn’t entirely linear.

Which makes sense, because I actually don’t learn particularly well by reading, even though I’ve written a book!

There are audiobook versions available through platforms including Spotify, Amazon and Apple, as well as ebook and Kindle editions.

So there are different ways people can experience it.

Michelle: Perfect.

You’ll also see Mike featuring in Kaboose’s Neuro Nuggets soon, so keep an eye on the app.

I’ve got a lighter personal question to wrap up.

You mentioned Lego earlier, and I know you showed me a little Lego character before the call.

If you could build anything out of Lego right now, what would it be?

Mike: That’s a tough one because I really love Lego!

For everyone watching, this is Arcanus, the protagonist in my book.

My wife had a custom minifigure made with Arcanus printed on the back. It’s a beautiful little model.

But I’m also a huge car person.

I build and fabricate cars myself.

I’ve got a Bugatti Veyron Lego model here, but what I’d really love is a Lego version of my rally car.

I’ve got a Subaru Impreza rally car, and you can’t get a Lego version of it.

Mine is quite unique, so it doesn’t look like a standard Impreza anyway.

How cool would it be to have a Lego model of your own car?

Although I should clarify that I don’t drive the rally car every day. I can only drive it in special circumstances!

Michelle: I built a classic Kombi van during COVID. It’s up there on my shelf. Should I show you?

Mike: That’s a really good model!

And there’s a new Star Trek: The Next Generation set coming out too.

Michelle: Here’s my little Kombi.

Mike: That’s wonderful. A very classic Kombi!

Michelle: Very classic!

I don’t really get time to do much Lego these days.

So, between cars, technology and leadership, which one brings you the most joy? And which one creates the most chaos?

Mike: They’re all very chaotic!

I think a hallmark of my life is learning to lean into that chaos, even with the fatigue it creates.

I live with other health challenges, including dysautonomia, which can cause significant fatigue.

There are days when I simply can’t do as much as I’d like.

But I still want to spend my time doing things that bring me joy.

In my experience, making time for the things we’re passionate about is incredibly important.

We also need to think carefully about which passions we turn into work or income.

You don’t necessarily want to burn out on something you love.

If you love craft and turn it into a business, you might eventually find that the thing you loved has become the thing you’re exhausted by.

There are increasing opportunities for different ways of working, including freelancing.

We can explore how our skills and interests fit into those opportunities.

But when you ask me to choose between cars, technology and leadership, I genuinely struggle to separate them.

I just want to do them all!

Michelle: One of each, thank you very much!

Well, we’re at time.

Thank you so much, Mike, for sharing your experiences and insights with us today.

And thank you to everyone who joined us live and everyone watching the replay.

We have more Divergent Discussions coming up, including a conversation with Eric Garcia about autism identity and advocacy.

You can find tickets and upcoming events through Kaboose, Humanitix or our website.

We’re also scheduling more discussions for the coming months, so keep an eye out for those.

Thank you again, Mike, for joining us.

Mike: Thank you!