Neurodivergent-Friendly Travel: Exploring the World Your Way

Karla: It’s so nice to have you here. Thank you for joining me. I actually thought you were in Norway, but you’re in Sydney, Australia. So this is exciting. You’re at night time and I’m in the morning. I’m just, I’m going to do a quick intro because we do have some people here and then I will give some. Just some directions. So thank you so much for joining us. So welcome to our Divergent Discussion. I’m Karla, I’m a psychotherapist, I’m also a PhD researcher and I am the clinical lead for Kaboose. It’s an inclusive, safe online community for neurodivergent people to connect, learn and find purpose. We’re built by neurodivergent people for neurodivergent people. I think that makes us pretty different. And this is just a reminder that this divergent discussion is being recorded and we’ll be sending out a copy to everyone who has paid for a ticket. We’ll also have some time at the end for audience questions. please feel free to just drop your questions in the chat and then we will get to those. Hopefully, like I was telling Agnes, I do have ADHD. So always struggle to stay within time limits. So I’m going to try my best. Agnes, I’m going to do a bio, but please jump in if I’m saying anything incorrectly or if I am not saying enough. Agnes is originally a learning disability nurse with 14 years of experience in the disability sector, including accessible travel. She’s deeply passionate about opportunities and advocacy for young, neurodivergent people. She’s an award-winning entrepreneur, has been a finalist in business. New South Wales, right? Award. And NSW is New South Wales.

Agnes: Yes, that’s right.

Karla: Okay. As outstanding young business leader, that’s amazing, being named global change maker by Conde Nast state traveler and as a late diagnosed ADHD-er like myself, originally from an island in Norway. She also loves being outdoors. I just want to say that Norway has, I just told you this when I Googled it, 239,000 and more islands, which I didn’t know. So Welcome. I’m so happy that you came from one of those thousands of islands to speak to us.

Agnes: This one is actually Norway’s second largest, the one I’m from, but it’s still extremely remote.

Karla: Okay, all right. Okay, so there. Yeah, that’s amazing because I’ve been to Norway but I never thought that there were so many islands around us. So that’s amazing. That’s maybe one of the reasons why you’re in this field of travel.

Agnes: Yeah, well, you know, had to get out there as well.

Karla: had to get out of the island. Okay, awesome. So let’s start by with your company. So Travengers is your company and what inspired you to create a travel company specifically for neurodivergent people and tell us a little bit about it.

Agnes: Yeah, well first off as you said I also have ADHD so if I forget my words I’ll lose my train of thought. That’s how it is. yeah, starting Travengers it came from quite a be a disability nurse and when I was studying that’s when my sister got diagnosed with autism. Yeah, we always knew that she had struggled, but we didn’t know the reason. And as we talked about, I’m from a very small place and there wasn’t a lot of knowledge about autism then and there at the time. And yeah, I became very interested in learning how we could support young autistic people in school. So I wrote my bachelor thesis about that at the time. And yeah, and then… As a disability nurse, I started working with other neurodivergent people and what those that I worked with had in common was that they were lonely and they didn’t feel like they had the same opportunities as other peers or other similar aged people and they wanted to travel and to have friends and to… experience the world. yeah, there wasn’t anything out there. And then I discovered traveling and at the same time my sister stayed back home and lived with mum and didn’t do anything really and it was a struggle. And then I moved to Australia and the same thing happened here. worked with another young man who didn’t have any friends and he really wanted to travel but you don’t want to travel with mom and dad when you’re in your 20s. And I started looking and couldn’t find any fit for him, any social groups, any travel opportunities. And it was kind of always, yeah. he and the other people I worked with kept falling between mainstream and other disability groups and not really finding fit. And so I, you know, as you do, you realize that you’re not doing anything about it. You can’t complain that it doesn’t exist. And yeah, then started it so that people could connect instead of living in silos.

Karla: Yeah, that’s amazing. And it’s such a stigma that we hear often that neurodivergent people don’t want friends and or we don’t want to travel and yet we do want friends and we do want to travel. And like you said, a lot of times that’s also specifically quite with autistic individuals. you know, they just want to stay in their own little world. No, they do not.

Agnes: That’s a myth.

Karla: Yeah, exactly. A myth, yes, is better than actually the word stigma. But what I was going to say with that is that there are so many issues when traveling. And I know just for myself, I mean, I travel with that sunflower lanyard and I just keep it inside my shirt because I know that I can take it out any time. It feels like a comfort blanket for me. So for anyone that doesn’t know about the sunflower lanyard, you can get it for free at any of the major airports and It shows that you’ve got a hidden disability, you can take it out. And people just recognize and they kind of, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but they do give you a smile. So I’m like, I feel a little bit calmer because there are so many things going on. And I want to ask you about that. What are some of the unique challenges that you’ve found with neurodivergent people with traveling?

Agnes: well, one of them is, well, like you mentioned, the airports is a big one. I think, airports can be stressful for anyone really, but I think it’s intensified for a lot of neurodivergent people. It’s the noise, it’s the, even the checking part, going to the desk, figuring out all those little details and the security and the pressure and. not knowing what’s on the other end as well when you get to the destination. That’s something that I’ve always found really difficult and probably have held me back a lot when it comes to travel. Another thing is navigating transport, being in a new environment or the fear of being in a new unfamiliar environment or new culture. And there’s… yeah. the noise and the busyness and the crowds, depending on where you go, of course. And the overwhelm of even like looking into a trip or planning one can be a lot, both for whether you’re autistic or ADHD or other forms of neurodivergence. Yeah, and checking in at the check-in desk at an accommodation as well, like. finding activities. There’s so many little things and what to pack. And it’s just a lot that comes into traveling and also the fear of, for example, meltdowns or what can, what to do if something goes wrong as well.

Karla: Yeah, I think while you’re talking, I’m going through the motions of actually just traveling myself. And I’m like, oh, yes, it’s so nice to see new cultures and new experiences and so on. But the whole build up, even just the stress about thinking about it really gets me sometimes. I’m like, oh, should I be planning something? Should I over plan? Should I under plan? Should I plan one thing in the day? And there are so many questions. Like, what do I travel with? So do I travel with something? that’s kind of like nice for my body, but then I get there and maybe I want to go for coffee and I don’t want to go in with that clothing. So many things that I think about and I think with some of my friends that are more allistic in their thinking patterns, they’re more kind of like a typical way of thinking. They just don’t care. They’re just like, well, wear this. If it doesn’t work, wear something else, Karla. I’m like, yeah, but it takes me so many… It takes so much brain power to just go through all of these thoughts. yeah, I think we underestimate how much energy it takes. And I think that’s what we really need to do. Can you hear me now? No, you’re not frozen. No, can you hear me though?

Agnes: I think it froze. Am I frozen?

Karla: Okay, Karin said she can still hear both of us, so that’s fine. So we can just continue.

Agnes: now I can hear you.

Karla: Okay, all right, great. I was gonna ask you, what about your Travengers tours? Am I saying it right? Travengers tours. Travengers. Travengers. Travengers tours. What makes it different from mainstream travel experiences? What do you do differently to make this a little bit less stressed?

Agnes: Travengers, yeah. Yeah, one thing is that we have support guides who are familiar with the neurodivergence, whether they have lived experience or work experience. So the support guides are there to help navigate the trip, organize all the logistics, the activities, transport. They have the whole run sheet, you know, what’s going on. So that’s a big weight lifted off. And then of course, they also assist with the social and emotional support. if someone was, for example, getting stressed or anxious, we could support there or socially connecting people within the group and starting conversations and things like that. yeah, depending on the needs of the group, obviously. And they also build some There’s some skill building involved where we kind of, for example, at the airport practice checking in. It can be going grocery shopping and cooking together at an Airbnb depending on where the trip is going to. And yeah, navigating new environments. there’s, yeah, that support. then there’s obviously the… The difference also that everyone is neurodivergent in the group. You’re not going with, yeah, neurotypicals. So often we see that neurodivergent people just to get on better together. And yeah. yeah, no, no. Yeah. And then obviously we organize a full trip and yeah, all the bookings and all that beforehand.

Karla: Yeah, I think… Sorry, carry on, sorry. Yeah and also probably just giving a lot of feedback right to what to pack and how to pack and if there’s any questions so they can ask you and don’t stand in line and wait maybe for an airport to respond or something. So yeah.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah, we navigate all that. And we also provide packing lists. And yeah, and we do pre-trip Zoom calls so that we can prepare beforehand.

Karla: Okay, then. That’s awesome. Yeah. I just want to make sure that my voice is coming in. All right. Cause I can just see in the chat. Dot was saying that my voice comes in and out. So please do let me know. I don’t know what’s going on here in Portugal today. Maybe we are going to get to some of these questions because these questions are amazing. But I just want to make sure that two ADHD or stay on track here. I was going to say something about the traveling. There’s a girl, she’s an AuDHD, her name is Megan Foley, or Foley, Foley, I think. She also does traveling here in Portugal and some places in South America. So she takes small groups, which is really nice. I like the idea of going with other neurodivergent individuals. I was actually volunteering as a therapist for her group. So I said, if there’s anyone… because they were coming to Portugal. So I said, well, if anyone is here and they feel a little bit overwhelmed, they can always make contact with me and I can help, you know, just to kind of tell them where they are and if there’s anything around them, like nature wise. So I think that’s quite nice is to have access to a therapist or a safe person, maybe even like creating a group on caboose where they can just chat. That could be a nice addition even.

Agnes: Mmm. Yeah, that’s a great idea actually.

Karla: I don’t have to. You were talking about change and unpredictability a bit. So we know that many neurodivergent individuals struggle and experience anxiety with changes and unpredictability. What are some of ways that you reduce travel, so travel related anxiety? What is something that you do in your company or that you could maybe let other people know?

Agnes: Yeah, again, I guess it depends on the person and what their anxieties are related to. But for example, one thing that you can do is if you’re worried about the airports, for example, you can go to YouTube and look up how the airport looks like in that destination. I find that quite helpful sometimes. You can also go into Google Earth, for example, and even check out the streets of the location you’re going to so that you’ve seen it before. And you can create a run sheet with everything that you plan to do and what time. And sometimes creating a plan B and a plan C just in case something goes wrong so that you feel like you have a bit of a backup can be strategy and yeah. keeping someone that you can contact on alert so that they know you’re away and you might need to chat. For example, like you also said just now about, yeah, having someone to reach out to can be a big emotional support as well.

Karla: Yeah, I love that idea of having somebody that you can just quickly check in with or even vent with. I know one of the people in the chat has my number so she could always message me. But, you know, just having somebody where you can just like even just say, this is quite overwhelming, just to kind of like info dump. My friend, he went through a breakup and he was at an airport and he was calling me on video call just to kind of talk to me while he goes through all these kind of like sensory experiences, you know, and that helped him a lot because the attention wasn’t on all of the emotional things that he is going through or the sounds and the sensory experiences. So that worked really well for him. I wanted to share a funny story with you. So I was asked to go to, I’m not going to name the country because I don’t want to name and shame a country, but it is a country that’s not very, how would I say this? It’s a very intense country, sensory wise. And it’s like, you know, it’s one of the African countries that if you go into, you have to kind of be prepared, right? So I wasn’t prepared because the client that sent me there sent me on business class. And I was so excited that I completely forgot where I was going. So I got dressed up, Agnes. This was funny. This is like ADHD. at his best. So I got dressed up like I was going first, you know, like business class. So was so excited that I got dressed up in this really nice outfit and I was like, well, you know, they’re going to take my coat so I can just wear something really fancy. And I was putting makeup on and I guess I’m going to be this like professional business woman. And I completely forgot the destination. So I got there and it was super hot, very noisy, very crowded. There were flies everywhere. People were smoking in the airport. There’s this tiny little airport somewhere in Africa. And I just got such a shock because my mind didn’t go further than the airplane. So I think it’s so important to have that. longitudinal kind of thought process. Like, okay, where are you going?

Agnes: Check out the research, the culture first as well.

Karla: Yeah, exactly. And I love the idea of going into like Google Maps and walking through it and even like going to YouTube videos and experiencing like, what are you going to hear on the streets? Like, what is the language sound like? That’s also sometimes a shock to me when I went into another country, which I’m also not going to shame. But the language was pretty loud and like very kind of like edgy. That’s how I would explain it. And I was like, that hurts me. But I didn’t, I wasn’t listening to that kind of language before. you know, in Portugal here, it just sounds like they’re singing you lullabies, which is great, but in countries, it’s not. What about sensory overload? So can, it can obviously be a very big issue for a lot of us. And we have been speaking about this, but especially in airports and public transport. So what would you say any strategies? I mean, I would obviously say. headphones, but is there anything else that like noise cancelling headphones, but is there anything else that you would say like that you would recommend to anyone here that’s maybe going for on traveling?

Agnes: well, yeah, like you said, headphones, sunnies, a cap. I like to put like it all on so that I can just hide out most things if I want to. Comfy clothes that you’re comfortable with. Some people like to bring a feature tool or like a plushie even or something that you’re familiar with and comfortable with. And Yeah, the lanyard can help because you, it’s like a, like you said, a bit of a comfort blanket, just being able to pull it out. actually tried it once before I was diagnosed, just to test it and I felt the same thing. And then, yeah, I was diagnosed. But, yeah, other comfort things that you can even bring your own pillow, this, this, like this little pillow bag that you can get where you can wrap. your pillow and bring it with you if that’s something that comfortable with. yeah, I think those are the main ones for airports anyways.

Karla: Yeah, think something that keeps you calm at home too. I used to be, I’m not anymore, I’ve stopped smoking for like two years, almost three years now, I think. But I used to be a smoker and that actually, I know why I smoked. Because it gave me a reason to exit everything and go into a smaller place where I felt like people were similar to me.

Agnes: Thanks.

Karla: So if I look at it from a psychological point of view, it makes total sense. I was like, oh, okay, I’m going to a little area where people are kind of like the outskirts, you know, on the outskirts, people are kind of shunned out of society. And I felt so at home there. I was like, ooh, this is my tribe. And I’m thinking, oh, I just, I actually just wanted to be with neurodivergent individuals that felt, you know, out of it, that felt like that we didn’t belong. So I totally get it from a psychological point of view now, but.

Agnes: and

Karla: But obviously also like with the anxiety it helped short term, but not long term, right? So I quit smoking, but I still have this, I don’t have it with me now, but they actually, sell it for smokers that are trying to quit. And it’s just, I mean, you can just make it yourself. It’s just like a little, it looks like half a straw and you can just breathe in and out, but it’s made from copper. So I use that. So it’s like a, it’s a necklace. And then I just breathe in and out through it. And that just helps me to remember to breathe because when I’m stressed I tend to go up with my shoulders like this and I just I feel my breathing becomes more shallow. So I’m just like, okay, I just need to like breathe out and then that helps me. There’s another thing that really helps me in airports. So it’s the breathing. Yeah, it’s also the pressure points. So I love Chinese medicine. So I always look for pressure points that are quite tight and mine are usually in here, you know, between the two fingers. So I don’t know what these fingers are. This is a thumb. This is a pointer finger, right? I don’t want to get it wrong. But inside there, that’s where the pressure point for me is like usually the tightest. And I just, push there all the time, listen to calm music. and do the breathing and then I’m so distracted that I don’t really know what’s going on.

Agnes: you Yeah, that’s good. I just got a… I was meeting someone from Thailand tourism and they gave me this little herb thing to smell from. So it just like, please your nose and your sinuses and whatnot. And it was so comforting. But then of course, I was thinking of bringing it to Europe, but then I realized I wouldn’t get it back into the country or probably just herbs.

Karla: Oh, true. Yeah. But you can get aromatherapy. in my ADHD mind, I have a friend that came over and he is a smoker, right? So I was like, okay, I need something because I don’t ever want to go back to smoking. So I need something that helps me distract myself. And I just Googled, this is such an ADHD thing. I Googled things to not smoke. And I bought… I bought this aromatherapy inhaler and I have it downstairs, but I obviously didn’t check what it was for. I was like, yeah, this is cool. I just ordered it and it came and it’s for nausea. I was like, okay, whatever. But it helps, So he was here the other night and I was just like, he was smoking his IQOS and I just like kept on smelling this thing. And I was like, this is actually so much nicer than his IQOS, which smells like poop. It does. Let’s just be honest. I cost the electronic cigarettes. It does smell like fart. Like less. It really does. I don’t know if you’ve ever smelled it, but yeah, don’t. But anyway, so yeah, so I did that and it did help. maybe aromatherapeutic like diffusers is a great addition to take with you. And even if you have like a little package that you can take with and you put in all your sensory stuff and

Agnes: Hmm. Yeah. I don’t know, haven’t tried it, but I hope it works.

Karla: it can distract you. can open it up and say, maybe I can try this. You know, look at my sensory profile and see, maybe I can try something tactile. Maybe it’s something that I want to eat, something crunchy. So we can go through all of our senses probably.

Agnes: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of people also bring, for example, an iPad or something like that to distract yourself as well. Or something to be transported into a new world for a little while.

Karla: Yeah, exactly. You can watch all the Lover Is Blind episodes in one go. That just gave away my secret. Okay, so what about planning and executive functioning? That can obviously be very overwhelming too. What systems and support can help with preparation for that, for the people that might not be able to use your services, but that are traveling soon?

Agnes: I don’t keep you busy. You can use spreadsheets to plan out a detailed trip. You can even Google a travel planning spreadsheet and find one online that you can use. Or now you can use chatGPT to help produce the overall planning and ask chatGPT questions if you get stuck, I think. Yeah. That has been huge for ADHDers especially just getting it bullet points simple, getting the links even if you need to go and check somewhere else or learning about the culture and everything. It takes less planning now or it can if you are comfortable using it. And some people love the research as well. It can be. For some people it’s even more exciting than going on the actual trip. Just sitting down, finding a way to go, doing it bit by bit. We also have a travel training program, like an online one where you can kind of learn all the little bits and pieces about traveling and what to think about.

Karla: Okay, that’s nice. Yeah. And I think we’ll sort of like asking advice from other neurodivergent individuals. What worked? What didn’t work? Having kind of a buddy system, maybe even and saying, do you think I checked everything? Do you know what I did once with a client, which was awesome, because it was so fun. I started thinking I was going to go with her to South America because we did this, was it like accountability buddy or body doubling? We did body doubling where She was on the other side of the world in the UK, well, other side, just above me. That’s how I know geography. I’m like, I’m here. UK is above me. This is my, this is my knowledge of where I’m at in the world. You are over there, Agnes. And South Africa is down here somewhere. All of a sudden, yeah, exactly. So anyway, so I was speaking to her and she was in the UK.

Agnes: That makes all the sense.

Karla: And she was like, okay, Karla, I need to make sure that I’m packing everything that’s important. And I was like, just wallet, phone charger, that’s it. And then, you know, you can buy the rest. She’s like, yeah, no, I’m going to South America. I need to pack everything that is needed, like mosquito stuff, you know, and so on. So I was just there and we both made a list and then we went over the list while she was packing. And that really helped because I was envisioning myself going to South America with her. and we just did it together. So it was quite nice. I was like, well, what if you go for a hike? Like, you have the shoes for a hike? And she’s like, yes, the second day hike shoes. Okay, check. I got it. Do you have like enough pairs of socks? You know, all of those things. So it was quite, that was quite a nice thing for the planning and prioritizing to body double. What about role, what role does the community play in neurodivergent travel experiences? So if you have to think about the community itself.

Agnes: Hmm you mean how it can progress or how it is at the moment?

Karla: Yeah, I think both. think like what- how can we make it a little bit easier for neurodivergent individuals? How can we spread the word?

Agnes: Hmm. Yeah, I think, just even talking about neurodivergence combined with travel and activity, well, yeah, experiences at once so that people understand that, neurodivergent people travel and they do attend these things and they want to be included and have access. And I think educating, these activity providers and destinations and all that about the amount of people who are neurodivergent and how many potential customers there are out there and how many they’re losing probably at the moment if they’re not being accessible. yeah, just continuing speaking up about neurodivergence. think there’s definitely progress. See the sunflower lineart is getting more out there. I think there’s still a lot more to do though, a bit deeper understanding potentially. But you see places like the city, what’s it Mesta or something in the US, they’re an autism certified city or Dubai has become autism certified now. So they’ve gotten some more training. about how they can support. But of course, yeah, always look into who has trained them as well to ensure that it’s, yeah, the neuro affirming training.

Karla: Yeah, of course. And do you know what my friends are starting to do because I’m pushing out somebody videos, which I never thought I would, but I’m recording quite a few videos on my ADHD and I think my friends are picking up, you know, maybe she does have ADHD. Yeah, it’s been a while. Took about a decade. But anyways, now they’re sending me a lot of like when they go and travel, they’re sending me photos of sensory spaces in airports, which is really nice, or even in other organizations, like if they go into like a company or something, and there’s a sensory space, they’ll tag me, which is great. So I think that’s a really nice way that we can all do is once we see something that is neurodivergent, affirming, or friendly, or sensory friendly, we can just tag our friends and share it. I think that’s that’s really great, because we don’t always know about these places.

Agnes: Mm. Yeah.

Karla: Can you share a story or a moment from Travengers, a trip that you had that really stayed with you? Travengers. I can’t say it. Travengers.

Agnes: That’s right. Travengers. Yeah, I mean, there’s been many in the beginning. I was doing all the trips myself and I was always the guide and it was amazing every time. Just seeing people coming out of their shell often from being very shy or not sure how this was going to go and then starting to connect. And I think one particular was down in Tasmania actually. was a group of people and two of them had recently, I guess, started identifying as non-binary. And I don’t think they had any other non-binary friends and they just clicked straight away. They’re still friends and going still on experiences together. And it was just so nice to see them sharing experiences and being heard and seen, someone who really gets it. yeah, those experiences and when those friendships stays as well. That’s yeah, always amazing. But now I just love seeing the photos and videos as well. Yeah, that’s great.

Karla: Yeah, that’s awesome. Also sharing some of those videos and experiences online and showing that, you know, for other neurodivergent people that it’s possible and it’s fun. It could be fun. It’s not just stressful. I think once we, it’s usually after the fact that I’ve been away, I’m like, wait, that was actually quite fun. So I wonder if there’s not a way where we can also just pause and remind ourselves to pause while we’re… in the experience and just kind of say, this is actually quite nice. But I think as neurodivergent people, I just now I’m speaking for myself here, but I would need to program that. Like I would need to schedule that and say, okay. And I’m speaking to somebody specifically in the chat here that is going on holiday soon, where they can go and say, okay, well, you know, if it is like the eighth of November or whatever, and have it on their phone to where are you now? write it down or have like an online diary that reminds you to just kind of write down, okay, this is what I’m doing. Am I enjoying myself? What’s something new that I can see? What’s something new that I can smell? That could be, it could be a really nice like travel, like a sensory journal that you can create while you’re away.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah, it can be easy to forget everything unless you have some sort of sign that you’ve been there, whether it’s photos or a journal or something that reminds you of that space. Like even if it’s a smell that you get there and bring home and you can get back to, or a song. Yeah.

Karla: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Something that you can, yeah, I mean, sensory wise, we’re so strong with our senses and memory, you know, the link between sensor, the senses and memory is so strong that it would be really great to, to reenact that at home as well. So once we have that smell, then we can say, okay, we can kind of reenact that feeling that we are away. And like, I was speaking to a client actually yesterday about this, like a memory lane moment. where you just sit, you look at a photo, you light the candle that smells like Bali, for example, and you just go into that memory again, because your brain releases oxytocin, right? And then you re-experience that moment. So it’s actually amazing. We can trick our brains to believe that we are going on holiday right now. It’s like, let’s light up this candle and we go to Indonesia. It’s like…

Agnes: There we are, there it is.

Karla: There it is, yeah exactly. What about if somebody, if someone is neurodivergent and wants to start traveling but doesn’t know where to begin? What would you say is the advice? Like what is the first thing that they need to do? Is it to look at where they want to go? What is most overwhelming, less overwhelming? Or their interests? Like what would you say is the most important thing?

Agnes: I think, well, we often think in, okay, do we want, what kind of season do we want? What kind of temperature do we want? Do we want cold or hot or something in the middle? And do you want to see a city that you’ve seen on TV or do you want something calm and kind of going through the steps of figuring out? those things and then you can figure out, okay, city is cold and well known, for example, if that’s what you want. Maybe New York. And then you can use those things to do research. And for example, give me travel destinations to a cold city or something like that so that you can start viewing out. at least where do want to go? And then obviously budget comes in, like do you want to travel outside Australia or wherever you are in the world? Do you want to go overseas or you can start small? You could even be just going to a local town just to get some experience being in a new place by yourself. It doesn’t have to be a grand adventure the first time. So yeah, just baby steps in the discovery process.

Karla: Yeah, exactly. So I think in general, those are those are amazing ideas is to like, look at your budget, look at where you want to go, look at the temperature, look at the sensory experiences that you’re going to have. Yeah, I think I think it’s also important to just see like what kind of activities you want to do. Like, do you want to do you want to be outdoors a lot? Like, do you like horseback riding? Where is it safe? Where is it good to go for horseback riding? those kind of ideas. I’m going to shoot three really quick questions and then I want to get to the audience questions. If I’m looking down, it’s just to look at the questions so that I don’t get it wrong. What’s one travel destination that surprised you in a good way?

Agnes: this might not be like a big four people in Australia, but Fiji really surprised me. Like the amazing nature of the people there and how welcoming and funny and bubbly and yeah, they were just such a great attitude and they made you feel safe and welcome straight away. from the moment you stepped into the airport. They’re there with the flowers and just super supportive. So that was surprising to me coming from Norway at the time when I was still there. yeah, Mallorca maybe. I love Mallorca.

Karla: How is it? I like Mallorca too. Yeah, Mallorca is beautiful. And the weather is great. the north west side, the west side, I always get that wrong. North is southwest. Yes. The west side I really liked of Mallorca because it’s quiet and it’s like, yeah, not palmar. It’s a bit intense, but I’ve never been to Fiji. I absolutely loved, sorry. I absolutely loved Indo Indonesia, Bali especially because it was also so welcoming and

Agnes: Yes. Yes, exactly.

Karla: You know, like the language even sounds like they’re singing to you, but I need to still travel a lot. It would be great to hear what other people are saying. Like where is your favorite travel destination and maybe why in the chat here. Well, I ask the second question here is what’s always in your travel bag? So ND related, so neurodivergent related or just something that you can’t live without, something that you have to have.

Agnes: well, I always bring my laptop everywhere I go. That’s also an escape for me. I end up working everywhere, but yeah, it kills time and it makes me feel like I’m never alone. But, yeah, I think just the technology for me, just the airports and, yeah, airports and laptop saves me for that kind of stuff.

Karla: Yeah, mine is definitely my music. journal that you write in or on your phone.

Agnes: And I always bring a journal as well. Yeah, yeah, on like a notebook or something.

Karla: Nice. Yeah, it’s nice. You’re covering some of the senses there. is music. I have to have music. If I hear people talk or stress, then I kind of take on their stress. And I think neurodivergent women especially do that a lot where we just become stressed when other people are stressed around us. So yeah, I can’t hear anyone running around. Awesome. Yeah, Dot is also on the music. Okay, last one here. Finish the sentence, please. Agnes, travel for you is…

Agnes: I would say a necessity. Some people who think of travel as a luxury, but for me it’s such an important part of life. And it wasn’t always like that. I didn’t grow up travelling a lot and my family knew a divergent whole bunch I think. And we were just staying in Norway. But it’s just so important for just learning a good life, I think. Whether it’s close to home or cheap holiday somewhere, like whatever it is, it’s just the experience. So yeah, I think necessities.

Karla: Yeah, that’s a good answer. I guess for me, travel would also be something that is needed. It’s a little bit stressful, but it’s needed. And I just need to do these strategies that we were talking about today that could help to get us out there. I want to get to the questions because I’m actually sticking within time. I’m very proud of myself here.

Agnes: Hold on.

Karla: but there were some questions, one question that I didn’t really know how to answer and I am looking at finding the answer, but maybe you have the answer, is about traveling to Japan. And there was a question, also traveling with ADHD medication as some countries have restrictions. I’m about to travel to Japan. I know Japan is pretty strict with medication, even if you have a prescription. Sad enough, do you have any experience traveling there?

Agnes: Yeah, we had a group going there, well we’ve gone twice and what you need to do is to apply to the government essentially. It’s not an awful process but there’s a form online that you have to fill and send in. So just do that well ahead of time.

Karla: What is the form called?

Agnes: I think if you Google, I’ll have the link somewhere, but if you Google the Japan medication form, I think you will get it up then.

Karla: here it is. Okay. So, but this one is a US embassy consulates in Japan. I wonder if this could help. I’m going to share the link just in case it could help. But then, you know, maybe just have a look at that link and then we can also see if we can find something specifically from where this person is. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that’s, that’s important here because I didn’t know that This is the form what it’s called. Yunyu Kakunin-sho. That’s it?

Agnes: I wouldn’t remember the name because I don’t know Japanese but I think I would recognise it when I see it.

Karla: Okay, this is important. This is very important information, because I wouldn’t have thought that even with a prescription that you would need additional forms for that for certain countries.

Agnes: Yeah, it’s not for all medication, but it’s just the psycho, what’s it called again? Yes.

Karla: like the stimulants. Yes, stimulant medication there. Okay. This is good to know. Thank you. And great question as well. Because I definitely didn’t know this. So please, when you do travel, make sure that the country that you’re going into is fine with the medication that you’re bringing into even if you have a prescription. Definitely have a prescription. I was traveling to the UK with my ADHD meds and I had to put my name on the medication.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah, it’s a good idea to bring a doctor’s letter and the prescription and also on another note, check if you need any vaccines or anything like that as well. It’s really important. Yeah.

Karla: Yeah, definitely. Definitely with the vaccines. What was I going to say now with that sunflower lanyard? You don’t need anything by the way to get the sunflower lanyard. It was hilarious because I was so under, I was so under pressure when I went to get my first one at the info desk. So you just go to the info desk and you ask them, where can you get the sunflower lanyard? That I had my, I had my diagnosis. my assessment printed out and I was like, do you need this to see that I’ve got ADHD and anxiety? They’re like, no, no, it’s okay. You don’t have to show us your actual diagnosis. I’m like, okay. I was so prepared. So, okay.

Agnes: That’s private, you know. Of course. It’s dressed too, I’m sure.

Karla: Okay, so there was another question. I’m just trying to scroll up to it. And please add any other questions in the chat. Okay, so there’s one question about coping mechanisms. So any coping mechanisms when things go wrong, even before the trip in the planning phases, I ran into some embassy issues and staying calm in the unknown is near impossible for an autistic. Anything there that you would recommend? when things go wrong.

Agnes: yeah, I think again, having, if you can, having someone to contact, is good. Someone you can even put on like SOS, if you’re in a really heightened stress state, someone that you can call, can help calm down or find a solution to your problem without you having to use your brain capacity on it. or even just. waiting until you get an opportunity to breathe and then come down and then even using ChatGPT again just for a quick answer without the overwhelm can be good. It might help you actually find the answer. But yeah, I think also prepare for example like if you lost your passport have a bit of a backup plan for those kind of scenarios as well, having a copy of your passport available, things like that, just in case.

Karla: Yeah, that’s such a good point. One of my clients, he’s an AuDHDer, he lost his passport. had to stay over in a few nights in a certain country. And he was calm. I don’t know how. I was asking him for advice here. I was like, how did you stay calm? He’s like, well, you can’t do anything about it. And that’s such good advice. It’s like, okay, you know, you lost your passport. You will be able to find a way to get through this. But usually we become so… overwhelmed in that moment that it was actually really good. Like he was my therapist in that point where he was like, well, you have to let go of the things that you can’t control. And then just kind of step back and take a moment and first get through the overwhelm before you start making planning. And if you just look at the brain states there, like if you go into survival mode and your brainstem is activated, you can’t really go into prefrontal cortex where the planning and prioritizing and organizing. happens, we need to first feel safe, then we feel connected, and then we can only start saying, okay, what can I learn? What can I do in this situation? But it is important to know that you don’t need to figure it out right away. And even if something happens, like you miss your flight, it’s okay. It happens too. Some of these things do happen, but it would be nice to have somebody that you can call and also just stepping away and having a backup. having copies of your passport, having copies of your, even the check-ins, because we rely so much on our phones. And the one day I remember this because I was so stressed, I was in line waiting to check in and my phone just went dead. And it wasn’t out of battery. It just froze. And I was like, what is happening? Like, how am I gonna, what am I gonna do? And then, no, no. And then I couldn’t even talk because I lost all sense of reason. Cause I was like, I can’t check in. Like, what do I do? I had, you know, and it took a while. So I had to like reboot the phone and everything. But if I had copies of the actual check in the barcode or whatever it is, that would have made it a little bit easier. So now I do have check-ins and all these other.

Agnes: Mm. you Yeah, I think you learn a lot of those tricks on the way as well. yeah, that happened. So I want to avoid that. But yeah, definitely taking copies of all kinds of bookings and don’t expect to always have internet because there can be gaps where you can’t log in or something. So even taking screenshots on your phone as well.

Karla: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that you don’t have to go into the emails because sometimes you don’t have internet and yeah, exactly. So yeah, it’s good to take screenshots or put it in your, passport thing, but then I forget what it’s called. The passport, you know, the wallet app on your phone. So It’s an Apple Wallet or something like that where they always save the barcodes, right, of the check-ins. But then I forget what it’s called and I’m like, where is this thing? And now I just take screenshots and I, I mark it as, um, favorites, the photo, cause then I at least know it goes in favorites. Make it as easy as possible because our brain capacity is so, um, overwhelmed that we can’t really think about all these systems that we’re putting in place. So easiest to better.

Agnes: Hmm. Yeah.

Karla: Print it, have it with you. Because then you don’t have to think too much. I’m loving the music ideas too, that everybody is saying. I love music that is like very similar in beats because it keeps me calm, because it’s predictable. But some people here are saying that they like country, no to country. Escala, beautiful violin covers, that’s awesome. I also like Enya. One of my clients even calls it like an Enya bath tub. that she creates with any music and foam and stuff when she needs to chill out. Anything relaxing, I think. But some people like exotic. Sorry.

Agnes: yeah. I love it. I think of anyone I need to calm down to.

Karla: So calming, isn’t it? Okay. One more question here is any tips about foods? We’d also love to go to Japan, but our son has ARFID, so it feels like it never… it’s never going to be a possibility.

Agnes: well, a lot of people in Japan go to 7-Eleven, which is almost like a safe food place. And it’s not like in Australia or yeah, there’s other types of food there. So it’s more like Western food. I’m not too familiar with the diet, so I wouldn’t be able to give proper advice, but.

Karla: It’s avoidant and restrictive intake. So ARFID is just when somebody is struggling to try new foods out. that’s a great suggestion is to go to somewhere where you can just get something that your child or your partner or yourself is familiar with. I actually saw a video of this to two autistic individuals where they were in Japan and they’re like, we’re not trying it. We’re just going to 7-Eleven. That’s also.

Agnes: Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, we are in our groups. They I was wondering if that would be an issue, but they love the food there and you can get clean meats and you can get clean noodles if you want. So those kind of simple things you can find as well. But And yeah, and you can translate the menu with your phone, for example, with Google Translate.

Karla: Yeah, that’s actually also a great idea is to share some apps that you might think are useful. I mean, Google Translate is obviously one that everybody uses, I think. We use Deeple because in Portuguese you get obviously the Brazilian Portuguese and then you get the European Portuguese and European Portuguese is what I speak. But Deeple is a bit more accurate there. But are there any other apps that you know of that you would recommend for traveling purposes that are good?

Agnes: we use one called Life360, which is, helping people find each other. Or if you’re alone, for example, then you can get someone to add you on Life360 and they will see where you are all the time. And, yeah, so if you need any help or support, that’s a good one. Or if you lose connection or they can’t find you or something, they can’t reach you, then they can see where you are. but to use that you need time.

Karla: Life360. It’s Life360. Okay, that’s good. What about like, because I know about this one. It’s called, is it called Komoot? No, it’s somewhere, my friend was sharing it with me. It’s like a one that you can check for specific hiking trails. So if you are in a new place, you can just type in hiking and like close by. I’m just gonna try and find it for us, but if there’s anything else…

Agnes: Is it all trails? Maybe? There’s one called all trails, I believe. yeah.

Karla: and I think it’s, all trails, mean, if that’s something. But I think it’s important to also know that you can search for apps that are interest-based. So for me, it’s always hiking. Like I always want to hike wherever I go. It’s called Komoot. So this is the app that I’m talking about. So if you do like hiking, then you can just download Komoot, which I don’t know what it stands for, but… It gives you all the hiking trails near you. It’s a really nice app. So it tells you the strength or how strong you need to be and so on. If there’s anything else, Rox also uses all trails. Okay. Nice. These are great. Yeah. If there’s anything else that you want to share, Dot was also sharing podcasts. So she’s listening to Sherlock and Co. Sherlock is Neurodivergent, which is always a plus. I love listening to podcasts too. So if there’s any podcasts, mean, mine is always like, tend to go to is always blind boy. He’s autistic. He’s from Ireland. His podcast can be a little bit intense, but he’s, yeah, he’s always got hot takes on interesting facts. So it’s like, you know, he talks about like, do, where do colors come from and stuff like that. So it’s really, yeah, it’s awesome. But drop any suggestions in the chat. Mine is definitely a blind boy from Ireland. I’d love anything to do with quick facts, interesting facts. But we need to wrap up so that we stay within the hour. Thank you so much for your time, Agnes. Thank you for everybody’s participation. This was great. This is also just a reminder to our audience that we will have a range of divergent discussions coming up. We’re going to be talking to Jill about improving focus, which is something that I definitely need, and stress management, which is great, before we travel. Plus, we have Lauren and Tom from NeuroDio that I will be speaking on to discuss neurodivergent relationships, which is also one that I’m struggling with. So this is great. You can get those tickets through Humanitix or you can head over to our website or our app to register for those. And then if you have a paid ticket that you’ll receive the replay video in your inbox shortly so you can watch it again. Thank you, Agnes, and good luck with your next traveling experience. Where are you going next?

Agnes: Next I think will be Thailand and then maybe Uluru as well and then I’ll go to Perth for an autism conference in November.

Karla: awesome. Okay, well, let me know if you ever go to Portugal. I’ll be your therapist. Yes, I am. I do live here. Yes, they are for five years already.

Agnes: You lived there? I was confused. wow, I no idea.

Karla: Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s a really nice country. People are great. They look angry sometimes, but they’re not. They’re amazing. Love the Portuguese. Anyways, thank you so much. Thanks everyone for being here and your questions. It was lovely and hopefully see you soon.

Agnes: Yes. Thank you.