Why is self-care often the first thing we abandon when life becomes overwhelming? For neurodivergent people, sensory demands, executive functioning challenges, hyperfocus and a lifetime of expectations about productivity can make recognising and responding to our own needs particularly difficult.
In this Divergent Discussion, Kaboose founder Michelle sits down with Jenine Lillian, a non-binary autistic neurodiversity consultant, educator, artist, writer and librarian, to explore what meaningful neurodivergent self-care looks like in everyday life.
Drawing on their lived experience of late-diagnosed autism and dyslexia, alongside three decades of professional development experience, Jenine challenges the idea that self-care is an indulgence. Instead, they explore how small, intentional changes can help people recognise their needs, establish boundaries and reduce the risk of burnout.
From managing digital distractions and finding moments of rest to navigating self-care guilt, sensory overwhelm and workplace expectations, the conversation offers practical strategies that don’t require large amounts of time or money. Jenine also shares their three simple starting points for building a more sustainable self-care routine: drink more water, move your body and go to sleep a little earlier.
Michelle: Hello, everybody. Welcome to our Divergent Discussion.
I’m Michelle, and I’m the founder of Kaboose. We’re an inclusive, safe online community for neurodivergent people to connect, learn and thrive. We’re built by neurodivergent people, for neurodivergent people.
Just a reminder to everyone joining us online that the session is being recorded for those who need to watch the replay afterwards.
I’m very excited to welcome our guest today, Jenine Lillian.
Jenine is a neurodivergent adult who received autism and dyslexia diagnoses very late in life. They understand firsthand the unique challenges and strengths that come with being neurodivergent.
With a passion for fostering self-acceptance and empowerment, Jenine is dedicated to supporting neurodivergent adults and their employers through authenticity, vulnerability and humour.
As a non-binary autistic neurodiversity consultant, educator, artist, writer and librarian with three decades of professional development experience, Jenine continues to raise awareness, reduce stigma and increase inclusion for neurodivergent people and those with other invisible disabilities.
Welcome, Jenine!
Jenine: Thank you, Michelle. Thank you so much!
Everyone who’s tuning in live or watching the recording, I’m going to have you start with a breath, because Michelle needs to breathe more!
Breathe in. Breathe out.
Michelle: Okay, yes, I do!
I think I did it too quickly.
Jenine: Okay, do it more slowly.
Isn’t that great?
We can do that anytime. We can do it in front of people, behind people, on mute or with our cameras off.
There you go. There’s your first self-care tip!
Michelle: Amazing. I’m already getting tips!
I definitely need some coaching in breathing because my ADHD brain goes very fast, and so does my speaking voice.
With the additional stress of presenting, I tend to speak even faster.
We have some great questions today. For everyone in the audience, feel free to drop your questions into the chat as we go, and we’ll answer them at the most appropriate point.
Jenine, you’ve described self-care as a real passion, and we’ve had lots of conversations about this.
What does self-care mean to you personally?
Jenine: It’s a lot of things, and it’s not a lot of things.
I’ve been thinking about how to answer this.
Fundamentally, it’s about taking responsibility for making sure that I’m taking really good care of myself, the same way I would care for a very dear friend.
I don’t know about you, but for most of my life, I lived with an absolute tyrant inside my own mind.
It constantly told me that I couldn’t rest, that I could never be enough, that I needed to keep pushing harder and trying more.
Have you done this? Have you changed yourself in that way?
It was this constant, really unpleasant radio station of criticism inside my own mind.
Essentially, I’d collected all these messages throughout my life and then kept playing them back to myself.
We go to an exercise class, and someone says, “Listen to your body.”
And I’m thinking, “What the hell does that mean?”
Or we get on a plane, and they tell us to put our own oxygen mask on before helping somebody else.
For those of us in helping professions, that can be really difficult to understand.
I thought I should just continue helping other people, but I was completely depleting myself.
I’ve realised that I have much greater capacity to support others when I feel robust in myself, when my own needs are being met, or at least when they’re being met more consistently than they used to be.
For me, self-care means drinking a lot of water, laughing a lot, breathing and resting.
It means having strong boundaries around technology, screen time and sensory input.
It means walking every morning, eating healthy food and doing things that make me happy, even if other people think they’re weird.
I love washing dishes by hand!
And no, I will not come to your house and wash all your dishes.
Michelle: I think I did ask you to do that last time!
Jenine: So many people do!
But these are simple things that make me feel good. They’re not hurting anyone, and they’re helping me take care of myself.
That’s what self-care means to me at its foundation.
Michelle: I really like the point you made about collecting negative messages over our lives.
You’re told you’re not doing something properly, or you should do something better, or you need to change something else.
It’s almost like programming a computer. Those messages keep playing over and over again.
Jenine: Exactly!
You think, “I’m having a nice day.”
And then that voice says, “No, you’re not. You should be doing this instead!”
It’s endless.
Michelle: You’ve touched on this already, but many people think self-care is indulgent or a luxury.
How do we redefine that message? I’m not even sure where we picked it up from.
It’s a big question, sorry!
Jenine: There’s so much to unpack there!
Many of us grew up watching our parents push themselves incredibly hard.
The message was to suck it up and get things done.
Feelings weren’t necessarily the priority. Taking care of themselves wasn’t always the priority either.
We have examples from previous generations of people putting their own needs last.
It’s often easier to look at somebody else and recognise that they’re being too hard on themselves than it is to unpack those beliefs in our own lives.
Here’s something interesting.
Last year, I offered a workshop called something like Self-Care for Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs.
We didn’t get enough registrations, so we had to cancel it.
This year, I repackaged essentially the same workshop as Stress Management for Disabled Entrepreneurs.
And it filled up! We’re now planning a second session.
What fascinates me is that, as a society, we’re comfortable saying, “I’m stressed,” or “I’m so stressed.”
But many of us struggle to say, “Self-care is a priority.”
Even working towards making self-care a regular part of our lives can feel difficult.
I didn’t have any real self-care practices, and I didn’t even realise that until I started examining what I did to look after myself.
Even something as basic as taking a shower is an act of self-care.
There are so many messages telling us that our needs aren’t important, and it takes work to unpack them.
Maybe self-care means taking medication as directed and creating a system that helps you remember to take it.
We’ve talked about that a lot in the Self-Care for the Win Tribe on Kaboose.
Maybe it means moving your body instead of sitting in front of a computer all day.
We’re more than just a head in a jar!
It can mean drinking water, having social contact that isn’t completely draining, being connected to a community and getting enough sleep.
I’m sure there are people listening who are thinking, “That’s enormous! We need a whole session on just one of those things.”
And they’re right.
It can be difficult to start breaking these things down.
But later, we’ll talk about some practical ideas that we can put in our self-care utility belts.
Michelle: That’s great.
It’s interesting that you can share something about self-care and get almost no response, but when you talk about stress, everyone relates to it immediately.
Why do you think practising self-care is particularly important for neurodivergent people?
Jenine: That’s a big question.
Neurodivergent people can experience substantial barriers in employment, education and everyday life.
Many of us encounter friction as we move through the world, whether that’s something we feel internally, something other people point out, or both.
Anxiety and depression can also be significant challenges.
There are serious issues affecting wellbeing, health and quality of life.
But here’s where self-care becomes so important.
It can help us recognise the warning signs before we reach burnout.
Usually, we hear about burnout after someone has already pushed themselves far beyond their capacity.
They’ve reached collapse, shutdown, meltdown or complete exhaustion.
Without some kind of intervention, many of us are continually working towards that point.
My passion for self-care came from recognising how difficult I’d made it for myself to rest.
I felt compelled to be productive and to be of service to other people.
Those can be wonderful qualities, but for me, they’d become part of a compulsion that was driving everything I did.
When I started changing that, my life became fundamentally different.
I have more joy, more calm and more satisfaction.
I’m also more efficient and capable than I used to be.
What changed was my understanding that taking care of myself needs consistent, deliberate attention.
Now I ask myself questions.
Do I really want to do this activity?
How am I feeling?
What’s my calendar looking like?
Am I overbooked?
It’s almost like a little game, moving pieces around to create a life that works better.
Sometimes saying no ahead of time allows me to say yes to something I genuinely want to do later.
Michelle: I love that idea of getting ahead of burnout.
As a neurodivergent person myself, I can become extremely hyperfocused on work.
I’m always thinking about building Kaboose, the next feature, the next project or whatever we’re working on.
When something becomes a special interest, it can absorb so much of your attention.
Sometimes it gets a little out of control.
Jenine: That’s why having people around us is so important.
You have a wonderful team, and they can help bring each other back to what’s realistic.
Someone might say, “That’s a fantastic idea, but we can’t do it yet. Let’s put it on the wish list.”
Or, “That fits into the scope of the next iteration.”
We’ll never be completely finished with everything we want to do.
In my work, I ask myself three questions.
What am I most passionate about?
What will help me earn an income?
And how can I help people?
If something doesn’t fit into those categories, it goes onto the wish list at the back of the book.
That doesn’t mean I’ll never pursue it. It just means it can’t be my primary focus right now.
Michelle: Yes, the backlog!
We’ve got Rox joining us in the chat too.
Everyone, take a breath. We’re talking about self-care, after all!
If you’ve got questions, please add them to the chat.
Jenine, what are some signs that someone might need to pause and prioritise self-care?
You’ve mentioned burnout, but perhaps there are earlier warning signs.
Jenine: There are, and they’re often more subtle.
For example, if someone goes to work when they’re sick, that can be a sign that they feel compelled to push beyond their capacity.
It can also put other people at risk.
If you’re a supervisor and an employee comes to work sick, or says they’ll log in remotely despite needing rest, encourage them to stop working and recover.
Resting and getting better should be the priority.
Years ago, there was a bumper sticker that said, “I’ll sleep when I’m dead.”
That’s the kind of attitude that can signal a serious need for self-care.
People can become so busy with work, activities, sport and social commitments that they’re never available for themselves.
Even sitting down for a moment can seem impossible.
Put your phone down. Sit down.
I know I’m laughing, but I’m laughing because it’s painful. I’m not making fun of anyone.
This is genuinely difficult.
I used to teach yoga and meditation at the University of Washington in Seattle.
I had university students who became very anxious when I asked them to turn off their phones and place them away from their mats.
They were used to having their phones right beside them.
I think one of my most important contributions to those students was helping them learn to be physically separated from their devices.
That’s something we really need to be able to do.
Our devices are designed to make everything feel urgent.
When we’re constantly responding to that urgency, it becomes harder to recognise genuine emergencies or the things that are actually important in our lives.
How many of us have spent far too long on an app or disappeared down a research rabbit hole?
“Tell me more, Google!”
That’s why boundaries are important.
Another warning sign is when someone asks, “How have you been?” and your entire answer is, “Busy. So busy.”
Busy isn’t an emotional state.
We’ve almost turned busyness into a badge of honour.
People, including children, are becoming so overscheduled that there’s very little room left for rest.
And it’s hurting us.
I was speaking with a mother recently about reading because I’m also a librarian.
She told me the last time she’d read a book for herself was before her eldest child was born.
Her eldest child is now 17.
Seventeen years without reading a book for yourself!
Carve out some time. Read something. Anything.
Take time for yourself.
It’s also important because children learn from what we model.
Many of us weren’t shown how to care for ourselves.
We’re having to reinvent that process while we’re already exhausted.
Michelle: The modelling is really important.
As a neurodivergent leader, I find it easy to tell someone else to take a day off.
I’ll say, “Rest. Don’t sign on. Don’t come to work.”
But when it comes to giving myself the same permission, it’s much harder.
Jenine: It’s so hard!
That’s why I think about self-care in terms of how I would treat a dear friend.
If a friend felt the way I feel right now, what would I encourage them to do?
What would I create in their environment to help them?
I’m working towards treating myself as my own best friend.
For many years, I was much closer to being my own worst enemy.
That hasn’t disappeared entirely.
It’s taken decades of intentional work, support and encouragement from other people.
But it does get easier.
You develop momentum, and you start experiencing the benefits.
It’s life-changing.
Michelle: We’ve got a few comments in the chat.
Sean says self-care has always been one of his weak points and that he’s often been a people pleaser.
He’s also been learning more about PDA and how it’s affected his life over more than 55 years.
I think people pleasing is another reason we don’t prioritise ourselves.
Rox says she keeps meaning to buy an old-fashioned alarm clock so she can leave her phone in another room rather than beside the bed.
I struggle with that too.
For a long time, I kept my phone nearby because I wanted to make sure the kids were okay.
Emily says she takes her phone everywhere around the house, even when there’s no real reason to.
Jenine: Of course she does! The phone wants you to!
It’s designed to make you feel uncomfortable when you’re without it.
Here are some quick tips for separating yourself from your phone.
I have a phone-charging zone on a shelf in my kitchen.
I still use my phone as my alarm, but when it goes off, I have to get up and walk down the hall to turn it off.
My phone doesn’t come into my bathroom or my bedroom.
Those are no-phone zones.
It took time to establish those boundaries.
If you ever come to my house for a potluck, which you’re all invited to, I have a no-phone-zone house.
When people arrive, shoes off and phones off at the door.
We also don’t discuss the weather, traffic, politics or work.
You’d be amazed how difficult some people find it to think of something else to talk about!
Michelle: I love that!
Another audience member, Frostbite, says that being a full-time shift worker and receiving a late diagnosis have made self-care really difficult to implement.
They also relate to being able to encourage other people to care for themselves while struggling to follow that advice personally.
Jenine: It’s so hard.
We need to start with something achievable.
It can be something incredibly small, but it can still make a huge difference.
When I first started working on self-care, I was seeing a counsellor.
I didn’t really know how to take care of myself, so I decided to gamify it.
Every Wednesday, whether I felt like it or not, I would go and buy myself a latte.
I don’t particularly love coffee.
What I love is going to a café.
I enjoy taking a break from work, going outside, saying hello to the baristas and asking how they’re doing.
Sometimes I chat with people while I’m waiting. Sometimes I don’t.
For me, spending money on that latte felt like a big deal.
But I decided I would do it every Wednesday morning.
I called it the Vanilla Latte Project.
If that sounds ridiculous to you, that’s okay!
And if you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, self-care could be something that simple?” then yes, it absolutely can.
I did it for a long time and eventually started going twice a week.
Afterwards, I’d reflect on the experience.
Was it worth spending five dollars?
Was I worth those five dollars?
Was it affecting my food budget? No.
What parts of the experience did I enjoy?
It was such a small thing, and almost nobody knew I was doing it.
But it helped me build momentum and change the conversation I was having with myself.
Michelle: I love the gamification aspect.
I’m getting so many tips!
For people who struggle with guilt around self-care, what advice would you give?
How do we reframe that guilt?
Jenine: Sometimes we become so disconnected from what we need that it takes something dramatic, like an injury or an accident, before we realise we have to change.
I’d love to help people find a different path.
That’s why I use my own experiences as examples.
They’re often funny now, but at the time they were very serious.
If you’d asked me about my Vanilla Latte Project 20 years ago, I probably would have started crying.
Spending five dollars on myself felt extravagant.
There are also so many invisible responsibilities that people carry.
Think about the traditional expectations placed on mothers and people managing households.
Years ago, women might describe themselves as “just a housewife” or “just a homemaker.”
But they’re project managers, financial managers, transport coordinators, personal assistants and so much more.
There’s an enormous amount of invisible work involved in keeping a household running.
Taking care of our bodies, our environments and our personal administration is work too.
And personal administration can be particularly challenging for neurodivergent people.
Society has also created some very restrictive expectations around gender and emotions.
Men are often discouraged from expressing feelings other than anger.
Women are often conditioned to be accommodating, to say yes and to put other people’s needs first.
We’re beginning to challenge those expectations, but they’re deeply ingrained.
So maybe you start by recognising that you feel guilty sitting on the couch for ten minutes.
And then you do it anyway.
Look out the window. Watch your dog snore. Do absolutely nothing.
You can even email me and say, “Jenine, I’m going to sit on the couch for ten minutes.”
And I’ll say, “Yes, you are!”
Because those ten minutes matter.
When you never have time for yourself, even a short moment of rest can feel significant.
For some people, the only time they have alone is in the bathroom.
And even then, the phone comes with them!
Leave the phone somewhere else.
Give yourself that space.
Michelle: I like the idea of finding ten minutes.
One of my questions was going to be how we make self-care accessible and a priority when we have limited time or money.
When I think about my day, from around six in the morning until nine-thirty at night, it feels like I’m constantly doing something.
There isn’t much spare time apart from watching some television and having a cup of tea before bed.
How do we make self-care accessible in those circumstances?
Jenine: When I first started focusing on self-care, I had an extremely limited budget.
I was earning barely above minimum wage and living in a very expensive city.
But I still found ways to make it happen.
Let’s talk about time first, because that’s often where people feel the greatest scarcity.
Recently, I was talking to someone at the library.
It was the first of October here in British Columbia, Canada, and I wished her a happy October.
She said she couldn’t believe how quickly the year had gone.
I told her I was delighted because I’d been waiting all summer for summer to end!
Walking home afterwards, I realised how differently I experience time now.
I used to feel as though life was constantly pushing and pulling me around.
Now I feel more like I’m riding the waves of my life rather than being overwhelmed by them.
That isn’t because I earn enormous amounts of money or stay awake for 23 hours a day.
In fact, I sleep more than many people, and I take naps.
My friends joke that I have an inner senior citizen!
I’ve realised that one of my strengths is finding time.
I was speaking with a teenager who said he didn’t have time to read because he had homework, piano practice and other commitments.
I told him that finding time is something I’m really good at.
You start by looking at the things that consume your time.
Where can you set boundaries?
Can you change how you run errands or commute?
For example, if you’re sitting in traffic, could public transport provide an opportunity to listen to an audiobook or rest instead of focusing on driving?
Can you turn something you have to do into something you get to do?
If you’re spending a lot of time on an app, consider uninstalling it or setting restrictions.
And if you want to make time for something like art, journaling, prayer, meditation or quiet time, create a container for it.
Put it in your calendar.
Make the time non-negotiable.
Having a calendar and understanding what’s happening in your life can be a major step in itself for some neurodivergent people.
Another helpful strategy is body doubling.
I have a body-doubling buddy who works with me over Zoom.
We check in, turn our cameras off, work on our own tasks and then come back together to see how things went.
You can also do something similar by phone or text.
Sometimes I’ll message someone and say, “I’m going for a walk now.”
They might reply, “Great, I’m going to go for a walk in an hour.”
That little bit of accountability can make a difference.
We’re often more likely to follow through when someone else knows what we’re planning to do.
We also get encouragement from one another.
Another principle I think about is that if you don’t decide how you’re going to spend your time, energy or money, someone else will.
And right now, a lot of that influence comes from digital technology.
That’s why I encourage people to create some physical separation from their phones.
Not because connection isn’t important, but because we need opportunities to experience our everyday lives without constant digital input.
As for money, there are so many self-care activities that cost absolutely nothing.
We should make a list of them in one of the Kaboose hangouts!
Michelle: That would be a great resource.
Even the idea of repurposing a train or bus trip is interesting.
It’s finding opportunities within things you’re already doing.
Jenine: Exactly.
Another helpful principle is to make habits you want to stop inconvenient and habits you want to start extremely convenient.
For example, someone in our Kaboose hangout mentioned putting their medication next to their toothbrush.
They already had a strong routine around brushing their teeth, so linking the two activities made remembering medication easier.
Other people use alarms, although that doesn’t work for everyone.
There isn’t one universal solution.
But there are many things we can experiment with that don’t cost much money or take much time.
They can feel difficult when we’re first getting started, but we’re building a new skill.
Michelle: Emily has mentioned FOMO, the fear of missing out.
That feeling that if you put your phone down, you’ll miss something important or fall behind with what’s happening in the world.
As a parent, I saw that with my children too.
If you weren’t connected, you could feel excluded from your social group.
And that feeling can continue into adulthood.
Jenine: Exactly.
Earlier, you asked where these messages come from.
We’re constantly exposed to social expectations about how we’re supposed to behave.
We learn those expectations, internalise them and sometimes impose them on other people.
There’s a lot of dismissiveness when someone describes their own experience and another person tells them they’re wrong.
We’re also constantly encouraged to distract ourselves from the reality of our everyday lives.
Think about something as simple as noticing what it feels like to breathe.
Most advertising and digital platforms aren’t asking, “How are you really doing?”
They’re telling us to buy something, change something or improve ourselves.
It’s this constant message that we’re inadequate and need to purchase our way towards being worthy.
I’m here to tell you that you don’t have to do anything beyond being a living, breathing human to be worthy of self-care.
You’re worthy of calm and joy.
And I want people to embrace JOMO, the joy of missing out!
I love the joy of missing out.
I was doing it long before it had a name.
There’s a huge, noisy, dusty, crowded music festival that happens near me every year.
And every year, when it comes around, I sit back and think, “I am winning at life because I’m not there!”
We can celebrate the things we choose not to do.
Make a list of things you love saying no to and another list of things you’d like to say yes to.
Celebrate both.
Maybe you don’t attend the overwhelming event you never wanted to go to anyway.
Instead, you give yourself ten minutes where nobody needs anything from you.
That’s worth celebrating.
Michelle: I love that.
I’m sure everyone would be interested in knowing your go-to self-care practices.
What do you do when you need something restorative?
Jenine: Every day!
I experience a lot of anxiety, and I’m nervous much of the time, especially when I’m preparing for public speaking.
Before this discussion, I took a cool shower and put on comfortable clothing.
Nothing itchy, no uncomfortable tags.
I drank water, walked around, listened to music and took time to prepare myself.
I also lay down and rested before we started.
I’m doing those things because I want to set myself up to be present with you.
I also enjoy washing dishes by hand, as I mentioned.
Walking is another important practice.
I particularly enjoy walking in the morning, but even a short walk outside can help me feel better.
Sometimes I simply wash my hands mindfully.
If I’m at a conference or in the middle of a busy day, I might go to the bathroom and spend a little longer washing my hands.
It’s a small opportunity to pause.
I focus on what I’m doing, breathe and give myself a break from everything happening around me.
Sometimes, at an airport, I’ll find somewhere safe to lie down and close my eyes.
I’m just taking the weight off my body and creating a moment of refuge.
If there’s a dark, quiet room available, that’s even better.
Unfortunately, those spaces can be difficult to find.
Michelle: Rox has shared something interesting in the chat.
She’s signed up for a course to learn Japanese.
She used to spend money on Duolingo without making much progress, so she decided to enrol in a class where she’d have a regular commitment to learn with a teacher and textbook.
I think that’s a great example.
It’s similar to joining a gym or exercise class.
Jenine: That’s wonderful!
There’s something powerful about doing things with other people.
I take a senior fitness class.
I could do those exercises at home, but I probably wouldn’t.
Instead, I go to the class.
Many of the people there are decades older than I am, and a lot of them attend partly for the social connection.
I get the physical activity and the social interaction.
We really matter to one another, even when connecting can be tricky.
Michelle: Your inner senior citizen!
Juliet says she sometimes takes a ten-minute afternoon walk with her dog, although social anxiety can make that difficult.
I like the idea of an afternoon walk.
Maybe that could become one of my goals, rather than sitting at my computer all afternoon.
Jenine: You could even do it without the dogs. How selfish is that?
Seriously, though, having a dog can make it easier.
For me, focusing on others is often a powerful motivator.
I’m an introvert, even though people sometimes don’t believe that.
But if I’m doing something in service of another person or an animal, it can help me move beyond my anxiety.
A dog needs exercise, so you take the dog for a walk.
But you benefit from moving your body too.
It doesn’t even have to involve going out onto the street.
You could play in your yard or go to a quiet park.
You could do agility games or scent-based activities with your dog.
It’s about finding a way to move that works for you.
Michelle: I like that.
I could easily go into the backyard and play Frisbee with the dogs.
It gets me away from the screen and gives me a break.
Jenine: Exactly.
During COVID, I worked with people who had previously attended gyms, yoga classes, spin classes or weight-training sessions.
Suddenly, those routines weren’t available.
Some people found remote work very challenging, particularly because it disrupted the activities they’d relied on.
So I started teaching what I called kitchen fitness.
We’d do stretching and movement exercises using things we had around the house.
You can exercise at your kitchen table or use cans of food as weights.
I’d play Dolly Parton, and we’d make the whole thing ridiculous!
Sometimes making something silly is the best way to make it enjoyable.
You’re still using your muscles and moving your body.
If you have children, a partner or pets, you can make it into a game.
Again, you’re modelling ways to look after yourself.
Michelle: I agree.
I used to talk to my children about movement breaks, particularly when they were gaming or during COVID when everyone was spending so much time at home.
Movement can help with focus and energy, and making it fun can be particularly helpful for people with ADHD.
Chloe says visual prompts are really important for them.
On days when they can’t go for a walk or do a full yoga session, they use yoga dice to add some novelty.
I’ve never heard of yoga dice!
Jenine: I imagine you roll the dice, and it gives you a yoga pose or sequence to do.
That’s a great idea.
You could also make your own cards with different activities written on them.
It doesn’t need to cost anything.
And if you can do it with someone else, that can make it more enjoyable and easier to follow through.
Michelle: How can people tell the difference between genuine self-care and avoiding responsibilities?
I think about this with my ADHD daughter.
Sometimes she’ll say she’s going to lie down and watch television.
How do we know when that’s restorative and when it might be avoidance?
Jenine: That’s a tricky question, and it connects back to the guilt we were discussing earlier.
Sometimes avoiding responsibilities can be a sign of burnout, anxiety or depression.
Anxiety might make you feel that you should be doing something, while depression can make it feel impossible to do anything.
One approach could be to have a conversation about what genuinely feels restorative.
Maybe you could work together to create a list of self-care activities that help someone recharge, rather than simply escape from what they’re feeling.
There’s a difference between deliberately choosing a restorative activity and zoning out for hours without feeling any better afterwards.
For me, sometimes a nap is more helpful than watching television.
When I reach a point where I can’t learn, do or process anything else, I might feel like watching a show.
But sometimes I recognise that what I actually need is less input.
I’ll lie down in my dark room with my kittens and my comfortable bed.
Even if I don’t sleep, I’m giving myself time with no demands.
No input, no output. Just breathing and resting.
Even five or ten minutes can make a difference.
Michelle: I like the idea of being deliberate about it.
Part of my evening routine is spending an hour watching something with a cup of tea.
That’s my time.
But there’s also a balance between doing something restorative and spending long periods avoiding the things you need to do.
Jenine: Exactly.
By the end of your day, Michelle, I’m guessing you don’t have much energy left for anything else.
Michelle: Not at all!
And I don’t want to do any more talking!
Jenine: That’s understandable.
Maybe you create a routine with your household where everyone understands that you’ve finished for the day.
People can read, do their own activities or spend time quietly.
But you’re not available to answer more questions or solve more problems.
You’ve clocked off from adulting!
You could even go for a quiet walk together.
Sometimes I see people going for walks or runs while spending the entire time complaining about work, traffic, politics or the weather.
And I wonder whether that’s actually restorative for them.
Michelle: That’s a good point.
Thinking about workplaces, you’ve had a lot of professional experience, and so have I.
How can workplaces and organisations better support self-care for employees?
What should leaders and managers be thinking about?
Jenine: First, if you’re a supervisor and someone calls in sick, or you discover they’ve been working while they’re sick, encourage them to stop and recover.
You can do it kindly, but make it clear that their health and wellbeing matter.
Employees shouldn’t feel they have to bring illness into the workplace or work through it to prove their value.
If someone has worked for a company for 25 years and never taken a holiday, that’s something management should be concerned about.
People need time off.
Sometimes they even need a holiday to recover from their holiday!
People experiencing grief, whether they’ve lost a person or a pet, also need care and support.
When an organisation says, “Take all the time you need,” but then bombards someone with emails and deadlines, it isn’t living that message.
Another issue is open-plan offices.
They can be incredibly difficult environments, not just for neurodivergent people but for many employees.
There’s constant sensory input: conversations, movement, smells, interruptions and noise.
It can be exhausting.
People need opportunities to work without constant stimulation.
If there’s a storage room or unused space that can be converted into a quiet room, consider doing that.
Make it somewhere people can go without phones, noise or interruptions.
When I worked in an office, I used to spend part of my lunch break walking outside.
Then I’d find somewhere quiet to sit before returning to work.
That shouldn’t be a luxury.
And please, don’t schedule back-to-back meetings all day.
People need breathing room between meetings.
Michelle: I agree.
When I was Chief People Officer at Envato, we were very conscious of wellbeing.
We organised wellbeing weeks, different themed activities and opportunities for people to learn about looking after themselves.
Organisations are becoming more aware of neurodiversity, but I think there’s still a lot of work to do when it comes to practical support.
We’ve seen ideas like sensory-friendly spaces and even sleeping pods introduced in workplaces.
I don’t know many organisations that have sleeping pods now, but I can see how they might be beneficial for some people.
Jenine: Absolutely.
The other part is encouraging people to actually use those spaces.
It’s one thing to provide a quiet room, but employees also need to feel comfortable taking time to rest.
Sometimes all someone needs is a place where they can close their eyes and feel physically safe.
Even a park bench can work for some people, although it won’t suit everybody.
Sometimes the only place people feel they can get a moment alone is in a bathroom stall.
If that’s the only quiet space available, take that moment.
And please don’t have conversations through the bathroom door!
We need to normalise creating little moments of spaciousness throughout the day.
Organisations should make those opportunities available and actively encourage employees to use them.
I once started a campaign called Mondays Don’t Have to Suck at a company where I worked remotely.
I’d lead a mindfulness session that anybody could join.
It wasn’t formal or complicated.
I’d introduce a practice, we’d try it together, and then everyone would go off to their meetings.
Even after I moved to Canada, someone else continued running it because the company recognised its value.
Michelle: I love that.
There’s also been discussion in the chat about people leaving workplaces because of burnout.
It really is something organisations need to take seriously.
We’re coming towards the end of the discussion, so if anyone has a final question, please add it to the chat.
Jenine, if someone wants to start prioritising self-care today, what’s one thing they could do?
Perhaps we could make it a goal and create some accountability through the Self-Care for the Win Tribe.
Jenine: Can I give you three?
Michelle: Yes! Give us three sustainable things.
Jenine: If you’re feeling competitive, you can try all three!
The first one is to drink more water.
Michelle: How much water?
Jenine: Just more than you already drink!
That’s it.
If you don’t drink much water, start with a little.
If you already drink water regularly, perhaps add a little more when appropriate.
It doesn’t have to be complicated.
The second one is to move your body.
It doesn’t have to be outside or somewhere people can see you.
You can have a silent dance party in your bedroom to 1980s music!
I dance around in my kitchen.
I also use a standing desk, which helps me move rather than sitting all day.
How much movement? How often? In what way?
That’s up to you.
Find something that works.
And the third one is to go to sleep a little earlier.
This is the one people give me the most grief about!
Sleep can be difficult for neurodivergent people, and there are many reasons why we might struggle to fall asleep or stay asleep.
But you can start with a very small change.
Maybe you begin your bedtime routine three or five minutes earlier.
The idea is to develop a habit that you can build on.
So there you go.
Drink more water, move your body and go to sleep a little earlier.
Michelle: I love it.
We’ll definitely include those three tips in our summary post.
Before we wrap up, what’s the most delightfully silly self-care activity you’ve ever done that actually worked?
Jenine: Who wrote that question? I want to give them a hug!
I love it.
Before I discovered I was autistic and dyslexic, I already knew that I loved connecting with people.
People are one of my special interests because I find them fascinating and mysterious.
I’ve always loved saying good morning to people.
Try it with me now.
Good morning!
Even saying those words makes your mouth form a smile.
It’s something that brings me joy.
When I discovered I was autistic, I started recognising that saying good morning was something I did partly for myself.
Even if the other person didn’t respond, didn’t hear me or seemed grumpy, I still enjoyed it.
So I decided to start saying good morning indiscriminately!
I wasn’t going to wonder whether I knew the person or whether it was appropriate.
I walk around my small town in the mornings and say good morning to everyone.
I’m a good-morning harlot!
And do you know what’s wonderful?
People have started saying it to me before I can even say it to them.
Sometimes people take their headphones off to say good morning.
It sounds silly, and it might not change the world, but it’s something that makes me happy.
You don’t have to do what I do.
That’s the beautiful thing about self-care.
It can look completely different for everybody.
But I enjoy saying good morning because, to me, every person matters.
Michelle: I love that.
As Emily has said in the chat, it probably makes their day too.
Sometimes those little interactions make a bigger difference than we realise.
Jenine: My brother gave me a pin when I left the United States.
It’s based on a poem by a British poet, and it says, “Couldn’t care more.”
That really sums up how I feel.
If you’re watching this discussion or listening to it later, I genuinely care about your wellbeing.
Your self-care doesn’t have to look like mine.
It doesn’t have to make sense to me.
What matters is that you’re finding ways to care for yourself.
I want you and your oxygen mask to be very well connected!
Michelle: Amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing all these ideas and experiences.
I’ve certainly got a lot out of today’s discussion, and I hope everyone joining us has too.
Just a reminder that we have more Divergent Discussions coming up.
We’ll be speaking with Ruby Susan about disability rights and LGBTQIA+ experiences, and Laetitia Andrac from Understanding Zoe will be joining us to discuss neuroaffirming parenting.
You can find tickets through Humanitix or within the Kaboose app.
We’re also very excited that Jenine will be hosting one of our Kaboose Hangouts.
For those who’ve joined our regular Wednesday hangouts, you’ll be able to book into Jenine’s session through the app too.
Jenine: It starts Monday in Canadian time, which is Tuesday for those of you in Australia!
Pacific time!
Make sure you check the time in the app.
And Michelle, I can actually say it to you now: good morning!
Michelle: Good morning!
It makes me wonder whether that’s why teachers always ask children to say good morning at school.
Thank you, everyone, for joining us.
We’ll see you again soon!
Jenine: Thank you so much!
